Linda Kenney Baden (00:13):
Good afternoon for the Long Crime Network. I am Linda Kenny Botin. We have Breaking News and I have it in my hand right here. Remember the owner of the Patriots, Robert Kraft and the sex case that we've heard so much about this week with his attorney trying to get those sex tapes just boom, go away, sex tapes. Well, guess what? Today the police arrested the 58 year old sex worker. Her name and excuse me if I pronounce it wrong, is Shein. Menbe. And she has been arrested. Interesting, interesting, interesting. Since we know that she, if they don't have the tapes, is the person who could testify as to what she did to Robert Kraft and whether it was a sex act. Remember this week his attorney, William Burke, was talking about the sex act. Well, I have here to discuss with me Catherine, Katie Smith. Katie, what do you think of this?

Katherine Smith  (01:06):
I think this is such much ado about nothing. I mean, listen, prostitution of course is illegal, but these are two consenting adults, older adults. There's no underlying if you issue of trafficking, I don't get what the big deal is.

Linda Kenney Baden (01:16):
And that's what the police first said. This was human trafficking. We all went, okay, that's terrible. But then it turns out they said they have no proof. It was human trafficking. So what you have is basically a hand massage of Mr. Craft allegedly that was taken by a sneak and peek camera. What's that?

Katherine Smith  (01:34):
Well, a sneak and peek camera, as I understand it, is a camera that was actually installed like a hidden camera to see what was happening inside the massage parlor. I mean, that just strikes me as really creepy and I don't want to see the tape. I think all of this is just way over the top. I get it. I understand it's illegal, but I think we have bigger issues to focus on.

Linda Kenney Baden (01:53):
Yeah, the amount of money being spent here, and guess what I said before, if the tape is suppressed, how are they going to prove it? The sex worker's not going to testify. Well, maybe she is because now the police can give her immunity to testify against all the people that we sometimes called in the old fashioned way, Johns or now clients or people who got a massage so to speak. So indeed, Mr. Burke, Mr. Burke, William Burke is a great attorney and he was in court this week and he said, Katie, that we don't need to see this tape. We don't need to see it because it's basically, I keep saying the long crime there could become a porno channel. You're laughing about that.

Katherine Smith  (02:32):
But it's true. I mean, I've never seen anything like this released. I think it's really bizarre. I do understand that obviously surveillance tape is taken in criminal matters, but this to me is way over the top. You don't see this typically. I understood if there was some issues of trafficking, but it's clearly not.

Linda Kenney Baden (02:48):
And what are we going to do if indeed, in terms of all these other people that just had massages and all of a sudden they've been taped all over. I mean, women tend to go to massage Paolo, not this one, but massage powers. What if it turns out there's a legal activity in the next room and you're being taped? It'd be pretty upsetting to say the least.

Katherine Smith  (03:04):
I mean, we have Fourth Amendment protections against this type of behavior. You're not supposed to be spied upon unless there is a particularity with it. And my understanding, I mean there had to be one heck of a warrant to be able to tape every single person who is getting a massage. I mean, this is way over the top.

Linda Kenney Baden (03:20):
That's going to be one of the issues. Well, that is Mr. Burkey is the attorney for Robert Kraft, the owner of the New England Patriots, a team that I happen to know very well as I represented Aaron Hernandez. So I have no love loss with Mr. Kraft in that regard to that case. However, I do think that he's being treated unfairly here. What did you say, Katie?

Katherine Smith  (03:40):
I agree. I agree with what his attorney said. I

Linda Kenney Baden (03:42):
Agree too.

Katherine Smith  (03:43):
I mean, I think the only way that video would be at all relevant were if a craft or the misuse would say, have a dispute of what the tape was actually showing such that, well, I don't agree that what it's showing is what I did.

Linda Kenney Baden (03:54):
Well, we're going to cover this on Friday court long crime is going to be there covering the court on Friday and we're going to hear what the continuation of the hearing is. Maybe we'll hear the judge's decision. But I agree Florida has these expansive rules that you get discovery just about the time the defense attorneys get it. And we see in other cases that I know that I've had, I'm sure you've had, where indeed evidence is secured, evidence is not allowed to the public because it could hurt, usually it could hurt the prosecution case here. And that's always granted here. They're saying it could hurt the defense reputation and be ridiculous. And they're saying that, well, the public law may overcome that, but I don't think that's the analysis.

Katherine Smith  (04:33):
I completely agree. I think one of the lines that his attorney was saying this period interest is in fact true. If all these facts are agreed in an affidavit and there's no dispute of fact, the video does nothing legally to shed light on anything. It's just for gawkers to watch and comment. And I don't think that that's a reason to disclose evidence.

Linda Kenney Baden (04:50):
I don't know. But I don't want to see Mr. Kraft or any of the other people that I'm reading about and even reading about their names is bad enough in these. It's really, really an interesting situation. But we have a whole day, not just Robert Kraft. We have a whole day and I know you want the Puran interest everybody. Okay? Alright. You know what I'm going to do with it right now? I'm ripping it up. So in case you don't have it, you can't get it from me accidentally, but we have a whole docket, a whole docket today on long crime. And I know you've been starting with some. We're going to switch gears a little bit. We are going to talk about a very emotional hearing this morning in New York. The Queen's jogger, the killer, the rapist, sexual assaulter of the queen's jogger, Chanel Lewis of just sentence for Karina Atrono, her mother, her father, her family, talked to the judge, talk to everybody in the courtroom about the devastating effect of this.

(05:51):
We're going to replace some of that. We're going to discuss some of that because there have been issues that the defense has raised. We're going to discuss it with Katie, whether or not we think those are real issues. Then we're going to go on to another case that we're covering in Tiffany Moss in Georgia. She is accused of helping to kill and burn the body of her 10 year old stepdaughter. Imani Moss, her husband has already pleaded guilty and he is going to actually testify against her. So you can imagine that he's going to blame her and she is probably going to blame him. But we have Vincent Hill on the ground there. He'll be talking with us hopefully later. He's been covering jury selection. He's at the home where the baby, where the child's body was burnt, allegedly by the defendant. So we're going to get the firsthand information only here on law and crime.

(06:36):
And then we're going to go to the McStay family murders. The McStay case, as you know, we have been covering since January. That is a whole family, a mother, a father, a four-year-old, a three-year-old who went missing in February, 2010. They were found by somebody casually who was biking in the area in November, 2013. The trial is now where Charles Chase Merritt is accused of killing the whole family and there are severe evidentiary issues, but less today we heard from a blood spatter expert criminalist for the defense. And you know what? We may actually give you a little bit of a demonstration about blood spatter if you stay tuned. I know. I'll have to tell our chat room that. So we have a full, full day. And then just in case you haven't been following merit every single day we have. And then as you know, the cameras have not been there all the time, but we're back in the courtroom because it is now April, and this did start in January.

(07:33):
We have what's called a package. It's really a news clip. It's really a news reel that we have put together here at Long Crime and it is being narrated by the best in long crime. You'll know who when you hear it. So let's discuss a little bit of blood spatter. I have my blood here in a little dropper. It's not really my blood, it's red food coloring. So it's not the consistency, but you'll get the point. So if you drop this, okay, if you do, oh my God, you should see Katie here. She's doing this. Did you drop this? And I'm going to show you here. You're going to get stains that are kind of like, if I can the camera get in on that. Well, now they're moving. Now they're going downwards. Okay. Okay. What happens is they're pretty round and then as they move, they go downward.

(08:16):
And if you're walking like that, you get a blood trail. And what he's saying, there's no blood trail. And Katie, now you really better put your thing on because if you have a victim, here's my little dog, Val John, and he's been hit in the head and then you drag him along. You get all these kind of smears all over. And if you are hitting somebody, oh my God, look at this. Look at this. It's all over my already. You're going to have blood. Look at my desk. It's full of blood. I mean, my God, the cleaners is going to have a thing. And this is just a little blood dropper, ladies and gentlemen. Katie's got her poncho in front of her. Alright? And so that's what he's talking about. He's talking, right Katie, there's no evidence of a blood spatter and blood spatter just doesn't go on a round table and stop.

Katherine Smith  (09:00):
No. And I think that this demonstration is so important to show. I mean, that is a tiny bit of fake blood. Tiny, tiny. And look how it got everywhere inadvertently from just very few movements

Linda Kenney Baden (09:10):
Even on, oh my gosh, they're going to kill me. Even on the glance table. No, I am not. Everything's going to be cleaned up. I'm actually going to leave these for Michael Bryant because he always looks for props and I'm going to see if he can outdo this blood spatter demonstration or maybe even in the court if they can outdo it. But that's what they're talking about. Blood is you can't, can't even get, look at this, I'm all over me and I didn't expect it. Right.

Katherine Smith  (09:34):
Well, that's the thing. I mean, your first demonstration was apt where if someone is struck and they're bleeding and let's just say bleeding from your hand and you reach your hand over, it's going to make these very circular even drops because with water and gravity or liquid and gravity, it's going to pull it down into straight circles, right? But blunt force trauma is you're going to have a trail behind it like you did when you demonstrated and the blood dripped off. I mean here from my understanding, all we have are these tiny little drop spatter, which doesn't really seem

Linda Kenney Baden (10:02):
To, and it may not even be, I think Mr. Beasley said there he is. Look, he's doing his demonstration there on white butcher paper as we call it. And he's going to talk about, let's see, let's see, let's watch it. But yeah, you wouldn't just have a round table and it's not going to be on that little round table that's going to stay there. That's blood that had been cleaned. Remember that table had been cleaned. So he's now doing a smear and cast off, which I didn't talk about, which is if the blood gets on something like a towel holding and you put it behind you, it can cast off all over. But it's stuff that you just don't clean up. Now let's see what he's doing, what his result's going to be. Now see, look at that. Look at the blood, just like we were talking about. That's what he's talking about. A blood trail, a cast off.

Katherine Smith  (10:44):
That looks like cast off. I mean if there was blunt force trauma from a huge hammer, you would have cast off everywhere. I mean there's no way to prevent it.

Linda Kenney Baden (10:51):
Aren't they lucky that I didn't bring in the huge hammer with this glass top table that we have here? But that's what he's talking about. And remember that those spatter stains allegedly were not seen by anyone. Spatter does not end at a table. You can't really go clean it all up. It's not like food coloring that washes away. You see? It's pretty effective to me. And he didn't even get it on himself. Now I got it all over myself and I wasn't wearing any type of cloak. But if you're hitting somebody, you have that pressure, that pressure, that pressure. And then also you got to contain the family. If you are killing four people inside there, that means there has to be somebody containing four members of the family.

Katherine Smith  (11:32):
There would have to be a lot of people. And also to your point with castoff, anytime there's blunt force trauma and there's bleeding, the castoff specifically is if the item that it was is striking them would be physically reaching. And then when it reaches back that and gravity and centrifugal force causes that to flick everywhere. So you'd get cast up on the ceiling behind you, and then the blood spatter would be when you strike the object, it would splatter over there.

Linda Kenney Baden (11:55):
Would you like to strike my object?

Katherine Smith  (11:56):
I would love to.

Linda Kenney Baden (11:58):
Okay. She's going to show you how you get. Oh my God. Here we go. Here we go. There it is. See, but that's not blood spatter. That's probably stains because you don't have the white around it like you see and blood spatter, you have drops and then they may heal a circular, but you're not going to have that after it's been, especially if it's been cleaned.

Katherine Smith  (12:19):
Exactly, exactly. I mean the only way, go ahead. Do I have to hit it with my, you want me to get dirty?

Linda Kenney Baden (12:26):
You know, misery loves company.

Katherine Smith  (12:27):
Can I use your guy,

Linda Kenney Baden (12:28):
My poor dog.

Katherine Smith  (12:29):
He's actually going to be the weapon this time. So I hit,

Linda Kenney Baden (12:33):
Whoa,

Katherine Smith  (12:33):
It splatters.

Linda Kenney Baden (12:35):
And it's all Over. All over. It's spat all over

Katherine Smith  (12:37):
And they off up here. Imagine the trajectories trailing up to the ceiling. I won't do it behind us. I flick forward the remnants flick forward hits, and then the splatter goes that way.

Linda Kenney Baden (12:48):
Spatter,

Katherine Smith  (12:48):
Spatter.

Linda Kenney Baden (12:49):
I'm like a crazy woman. They'll tell you here I'm a crazy woman with spatter. It

Katherine Smith  (12:52):
Splatters, but it's spatters.

Linda Kenney Baden (12:54):
It splatters, but it's spatter. Okay, so we're back Now we're going to see more, right? We're actually going to go to break. Oh my God, we're having so much fun. But we have to go to break. We'll be back. Stay with us. Katie Smith. This was the expert for the defense that was on his direct and I thought he was pretty effective comparing what at the table was not because you do not just like here on our glass table, you're not going to penetrate it with any type of substance. It's not going to go under the, that's why you polyurethane a table, especially you have kids, right? Right. Exactly. Yeah. And some woods get that pattern. It's called bloodwood as they age. So what did you think of his demonstration?

Katherine Smith  (13:32):
I thought it was very telling and I think it should be admitted. I mean, especially if we're going to counter the prosecution's evidence that that was in fact blood spatter. I think he should be allowed to put forth that demonstration to the jury.

Linda Kenney Baden (13:43):
And indeed, as we showed everybody, if you're going to drop something dripping from above, it drops in a little round pattern. If you're moving, you have a little tail to it. But you don't just stay on those little round patterns on a 36 inch table, correct?

Katherine Smith  (13:57):
No. Correct. Unless in fact you were stationary moving very slowly and just dripping from a top of it. Any type of blunt force trauma or castoff would not make the stains that they were showing.

Linda Kenney Baden (14:08):
Well, let me ask you this. When was the last time you saw violent murder of four people? That the murderer was moving slowly.

Katherine Smith  (14:14):
I mean it's ridiculous. And also, I mean we were talking about this in the break. We, they're making so much ado about this evidence, but really what does that forward the case for the defense or the prosecution where exactly the murder took place? Because I don't see how that would shed any light in one way or another and who the suspect is.

Linda Kenney Baden (14:32):
Yeah, it seems to me the prosecution should have not gone with this as a main theory, go with something else that maybe he did it. But here's the obvious ways it's not in the house. Because I think once they wrap themselves and embrace the house that undercuts the proofs of whether or not chase Merritt guilty in a way.

Katherine Smith  (14:52):
Exactly. I think it weakens all the other possibly strong evidence that they would have that's in their favor because this is weak, I think to bootstrap onto this theory that the murders occurred there because of these random drops in the table is very weak,

Linda Kenney Baden (15:04):
Which may not be random drops anyhow. Obviously you're seeing the, what is supposed to be the murder weapon right there. So that's Mr. Beasley. Katie, it's been wonderful having you on. I have your bio, by the way, before I sign you off. Moot court academics. I won moot court too, so we have something in common. She is a rising star and I can tell you she is. Thank you very much. Thank you for being a good sport with a blood spatter expert. And please come back.

Katherine Smith  (15:28):
Thank you for having me.

Linda Kenney Baden (15:28):
We are here at Long Crime. Have to go to a quick break. We will be back. We're going to have these, talk about the MCAY trial and other things. Stay with us.